Fascinating piece. Thank you! I have friends who I think subscribe to these beliefs, and now I better understand what drives their seemingly unshakable confidence that whatever the modern state called Israel does, it is good - a step on their path to The Rapture.
The vast majority of Christian Zionists (and evangelicals) know zip about their actual theology. It’s a folk religion for most of them. Picked up from slogans and Left Behind movies: “I stand 100% with Israel” they post in the comments of Facebook or Breitbart. Really? I stand 100% with Jesus. “God is not done with Israel!” You know what? God is also not done with Eskimos, Chinese, Germans, Hindus and yes even Arabs and Muslims (John 3:16). “Are you rapture ready?” Didn’t our Lord preach… Are you Kingdom ready? Nothing will change though until non-dispensationalists take over evangelical culture. So thank you for posting.
The church fathers clearly were idiots. If Marcion was not right then at least Apelles was. Sure there is one God, but he never commanded the genocides no matter what the OT says, those were commanded by the principalities and powers who Paul also says owns the ceremonial law (see Col 2). So the Jews don't worship God but rather the principalities and powers. Jesus even said that "No man knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him" (i.e. nobody really knew the Father prior to Jesus' incarnation, they only knew a distortion mediated through the principalities and powers) and John saying "No man has ever seen God but the onlybegotten Son has declared him" means exactly what it sounds like, they saw the principalities and powers not God; John does not mean they didn't see the Father because it was the Son running around commanding genocides as the idiot church fathers decided.
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. — Romans 11:25 NLT
The Earth has never had a population of gentiles as large as it currently does. It's more likely we're reaching the full number than not. Given that, Israel is legitimate. If Israel is legitimate I support a position similar to Zionism. Have a blessed day.
That is a false paraphrase. The Jews have a limited number as stated in Romans 9 verse 20something but Gentiles don't. The proper translation "fullness of the Gentiles" means the full inclusion of them into the church. Paul deluded himself by his love of his race into thinking their blindness would vanish when the Gentiles were fully accepted into the church. He was wrong, as it was only his personal opinion born from emotion for his people. But in Romans 9 he said the truth from God (quoting Isaiah) "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the seas only a remnant (small number) will be saved." His emotionalism for his ethnic people caused him to try to contradict that in Romans 11. But the NLT's false paraphrase of "fullness of the Gentiles" into "full number of Gentiles" is trying to reverse reality. In Romans 9 after stating only a remnant of Jews will be saved (an OT prophecy) he then cites another OT prophecy that "everywhere where it was said 'you are not my people' they will be called the people of the living God" and Paul recognizes this mean an UNliminited number of Gentiles will be saved. So there is only a full number of Jews, and it was reached by 70 AD. This is also why Revelation speaks of 144k from the tribes of Israel. All the Jews that would be saved were by 70 AD. Since then any Jew who converts only does so to subvert and infiltrate the church with (a) Zionism and/or (b) LGBTQP+.
Many thanks for the interesting and substantive comments. I could write a book in response, but won’t.
First, as a Christian who also believes in Israel’s right to exist as a state, and to defend itself, I have no problem admitting that there are serious problems in the Christian Zionist camp. However, the churches have a lot of problems outside of the Christian Zionist camp as well. The church is full of problems of many different sorts.
When it comes to dispensationalism, a twelve year old child who reads the Bible with saving faith is able to understand that God dealt with Jews differently under the Old Covenant of Moses than he does with us today under the New Covenant of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
He would also have no trouble understanding that God dealt with Adam and Eve differently before and after the fall, and that he dealt with Abraham differently than he did the Jewish people under Moses.
Going too far beyond that can lead to problems – for example, saying that the Sermon on the Mount was spoken by Christ to the Jews before Pentecost, and so does not apply to Christians. This means, I suppose, that we are free to worry and be anxious about tomorrow, return evil for evil, look at women lustfully, and build our house upon the sand instead of upon the rock.
As to Revelation, the first three chapters are open to any spiritually minded Christian – though differences of interpretation are possible as in other biblical books.
Also, the last three chapters are very plain, though differences of interpretation are possible.
As to the intervening chapters, with the beasts, plagues, and trumpets, I have read through the whole book many times in reading the New Testament from cover to cover, and don’t approve of those who avoid Revelation altogether, thinking it is too hard. There are some things which God has provided for us to read, but we should not be too dogmatic about.
Personally, I think some Christians should spend less time on Revelation and more time on teachings pertaining to practical Christianity, and sanctification in daily life.
As to “Dispensationalism, which is more commonly known as Christian Zionism,” I would qualify as a Christian Zionist, since I believe not only in the right of Israel to exist, and to defend itself. I also believe that the return of the Jews to their biblical homeland is the work of God, which he will continue. But I base this on the literal fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies, and what has actually occurred in the world, not on any elaborate and speculative end times scenarios.
More specifically, I do not believe in a secret, hidden return of Christ for a pre-trib rapture, and do not claim to understand the seals and trumpets and beasts of Revelation. I believe there will be one return of Christ after the tribulation, which will be like lightning flashing from east to west, known and visible to all. The saints who are alive then will be caught up to meet him in the air, as the Bible plainly states, but after the tribulation. So I am not excitedly looking for signs of the coming tribulation in the expectation that all believers will be caught up out of it.
“We are not appointed to wrath,” as the Bible says. That means true Christians are not going to go to hell, but will be accepted on the day of judgment. In this life, we may go through suffering and tribulation, and it is an honor and a privilege to suffer for Christ.
So, I don’t go along with much that is popularly associated with Christian Zionism. The idea that the Jews have their own relationship with God and do not need salvation in Christ is plainly false teaching (meaning, lies) since all have sinned and there is none righteous, no not one, and there is no other name given under heaven whereby men can be saved.
Neither do I get caught up in tiresome and shallow exclamations of excitement every time there is a war in the Middle East. Jesus said, “There will be wars and rumors of wars,” but that we should not be concerned about those things.
Neither do I feel any obligation to support every Israeli Prime Minister and every Israeli action or policy. Even in Old Testament Israel, when God was directly working with the nation of Israel in extraordinary ways, there were wicked kings and wicked people. And we read in I John that “the whole world lieth in wickedness.” That includes Israel and the USA, and every other country on earth.
But, I do not believe that the Israelis are obligated (a) to lie down and allow themselves to be killed and slaughtered by Muslims or (b) to pack up and leave, and go back to Germany, Poland, Russia, America or wherever. With Gods help, they have built a modern nation in their ancestral homeland, and they are allowed to defend themselves.
I do believe that modern Israel has a role to play in God’s providence in the end times – but my spiritual life does not revolve around that. I am more concerned with living the Christian life in a way that is right and acceptable to God. Is not God allowed to use the nations as he sees fit? Did he not use England greatly in the past, and has he not used America in many significant ways, in spite of its many sins?
The fact that God used America and England does not mean that all Americans and Englishmen are guaranteed of salvation, or immune to the demands of the Second Covenant. But God does not deal only with saved people, while the unbelievers can ran amok completely beyond any divine control.
FDR and Churchill were not men of God – was the Lord prevented from using them for his purposes? No.
The Jews unquestionably were a chosen people in the Old Testament era, when they had light and instruction from God unknown to the rest of the world. And what is to prevent God from preserving them, and bringing them back to the land for another future use – not one that will exempt them from the demands of the New Covenant, but will contribute to the final completion of that Covenant when in the end of the age all true believers in Christ, Jew and Gentile, will be gathered together into one, with the wall of partition broken down between them?
Now, in the terms of the New Covenant, the spiritual children of Abraham by saving faith in Christ are the true children of God – but that does not mean God has cast away the Jewish people and has nothing more to do with them, as Paul said in Romans. God has not cast the Jewish people away.
God’s providence does not deal only with saved people. His hand is stretched out over all the earth, and if he used America or England for good ,or even Nazi Germany or ancient Babylon as instruments of his wrath he has the right to do so.
And if he is gathering the Jews back to their biblical homeland; if he is gathering together the dry bones and clothing them with sinews, flesh and skin so that at the right time he may breathe life into them, that does not affect our standing in Christ or detract from his salvation in any way.
And if the veil over the heart of the Jews is finally removed when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and they are able to come to saving faith in Christ, that should be a matter of rejoicing for the church, not a matter of jealousy and recrimination. In God’s timing, the veil will be taken away (2 Corinthians 3:16).
This is not nonsense at all, but the plain teaching of the word of God. It has nothing to do with Christian Zionism, it has to do with believing what Paul wrote – that God has not cast the Jews away but has a further use for them. This does not mean they will be guaranteed of salvation because of their ethnicity, since God is not a respecter of persons. They will be able to disbelieve or believe as individuals, just as God’s pouring out of his Holy Spirit in the Great Awakening in colonial America did not mean that the British colonials were all guaranteed of salvation.
God can send his Holy Spirit in revival wherever and whenever he will – to Japan, Mexico, France, or to a reconstituted and revived state of Israel.
The primary problem with Christian Zionists is the inability to recognize the difference between biblical Israel and the modern state of Israel founded by atheists from Europe.
The Ashkenazim have no direct ethnic connection to biblical Hebrews. The Ashkenazim are converts, and this is even recognized in modern Israel, and I have seen and experienced this myself in Israel.
The Ashkenazim are not "defending" themselves. They invaded, and laid claim to, land that does not belong to them, and in the process, have murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians, including destroying a number of ancient Christian churches, in furtherance of their supremacist goals.
Just focus on Christ and stop groveling in front of people who have nothing but open contempt for American Christians, and I've also experienced that in Israel as well.
JK - "A retired English teacher, I have an interest in the intersection of religion (Christian) and current culture and events." - I read your comment, so you might be interested in - www.crushlimbraw.com - and the link to DaLimbraw Library - good hunting!
I noticed on the introductory page of your website you stated "As to Christ’s instructions to ‘make disciples of all nations’, well, that can always be explained away as saving souls. I am speaking on this topic from personal experience. I was one of them for 20 some years. "
So you were a Christian for some time, but then gave up on it?
About the article The Alliance Made in Hell? I have never paid any attention to Nelson Darby and Dispensationalism. I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, but do not think that Darby is the sole reason for the weakness and passivity of America's churches. There are many reasons for it - decline in basic doctrines for one thing, and lack of seriousness about living the Christian life for another.
I looked at some of your library's articles and disagree with you about Israel. I believe the modern state is a fulfilment of biblical prophecy, and that has nothing to do with Darby and dispensationalism. It has to do with (a) many Old Testament prophecies talking about how God will expel the Jews from the land and eventually bring them back to the land, permanently, not to be uprooted again, and (b) what has actually happened. I believe God governs the nations, and the survival of the Jews as well as their return to the biblical homeland is the work of God.
Obviously, much more could be said about this, but I am interested in your experiences with Christianity - if and why you abandoned it, and what you currently believe.
Personally, I believe America is headed for a collision course with the wrath of God due to its being a wicked and ungodly nation, that no President can change or solve.
Not sure how you concluded that leaving premillenialism equated to abandoning Christianity, as you seem to have assumed. That is certainly not the case here at all.
As to the Jews - who they are and who they are not - is explained in multiple articles by more than one author in DaLimbraw Library. History alone shows that today's Jews are NOT Old Testament Israel - in addition to what took place in 70 AD. Example: Jesus was not a Jew - He was a Judahite - the term Jew has essentially lost any definitive meaning because there were 12 tribes in Israel. Moses was not a Jew - you can dig deeper here in DLL or many other sources.
Fascinating piece. Thank you! I have friends who I think subscribe to these beliefs, and now I better understand what drives their seemingly unshakable confidence that whatever the modern state called Israel does, it is good - a step on their path to The Rapture.
I found you because Vox Day quoted you: https://voxday.net/2025/06/28/confessions-of-an-ex-christian-zionist/
The vast majority of Christian Zionists (and evangelicals) know zip about their actual theology. It’s a folk religion for most of them. Picked up from slogans and Left Behind movies: “I stand 100% with Israel” they post in the comments of Facebook or Breitbart. Really? I stand 100% with Jesus. “God is not done with Israel!” You know what? God is also not done with Eskimos, Chinese, Germans, Hindus and yes even Arabs and Muslims (John 3:16). “Are you rapture ready?” Didn’t our Lord preach… Are you Kingdom ready? Nothing will change though until non-dispensationalists take over evangelical culture. So thank you for posting.
"Code" = "Secret Knowledge"
Gnosticism is a hard heresy to eradicate.
Gospel & Kingdom is an amazing book. Recently acquired a fresh copy so my teenage kids can read it
In essence - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/2021/03/in-essenceit-always-wasand-still-isa.html?m=0 - it always was and is now.....war on Christ!
The church fathers clearly were idiots. If Marcion was not right then at least Apelles was. Sure there is one God, but he never commanded the genocides no matter what the OT says, those were commanded by the principalities and powers who Paul also says owns the ceremonial law (see Col 2). So the Jews don't worship God but rather the principalities and powers. Jesus even said that "No man knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him" (i.e. nobody really knew the Father prior to Jesus' incarnation, they only knew a distortion mediated through the principalities and powers) and John saying "No man has ever seen God but the onlybegotten Son has declared him" means exactly what it sounds like, they saw the principalities and powers not God; John does not mean they didn't see the Father because it was the Son running around commanding genocides as the idiot church fathers decided.
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. — Romans 11:25 NLT
The Earth has never had a population of gentiles as large as it currently does. It's more likely we're reaching the full number than not. Given that, Israel is legitimate. If Israel is legitimate I support a position similar to Zionism. Have a blessed day.
That is a false paraphrase. The Jews have a limited number as stated in Romans 9 verse 20something but Gentiles don't. The proper translation "fullness of the Gentiles" means the full inclusion of them into the church. Paul deluded himself by his love of his race into thinking their blindness would vanish when the Gentiles were fully accepted into the church. He was wrong, as it was only his personal opinion born from emotion for his people. But in Romans 9 he said the truth from God (quoting Isaiah) "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the seas only a remnant (small number) will be saved." His emotionalism for his ethnic people caused him to try to contradict that in Romans 11. But the NLT's false paraphrase of "fullness of the Gentiles" into "full number of Gentiles" is trying to reverse reality. In Romans 9 after stating only a remnant of Jews will be saved (an OT prophecy) he then cites another OT prophecy that "everywhere where it was said 'you are not my people' they will be called the people of the living God" and Paul recognizes this mean an UNliminited number of Gentiles will be saved. So there is only a full number of Jews, and it was reached by 70 AD. This is also why Revelation speaks of 144k from the tribes of Israel. All the Jews that would be saved were by 70 AD. Since then any Jew who converts only does so to subvert and infiltrate the church with (a) Zionism and/or (b) LGBTQP+.
Many thanks for the interesting and substantive comments. I could write a book in response, but won’t.
First, as a Christian who also believes in Israel’s right to exist as a state, and to defend itself, I have no problem admitting that there are serious problems in the Christian Zionist camp. However, the churches have a lot of problems outside of the Christian Zionist camp as well. The church is full of problems of many different sorts.
When it comes to dispensationalism, a twelve year old child who reads the Bible with saving faith is able to understand that God dealt with Jews differently under the Old Covenant of Moses than he does with us today under the New Covenant of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
He would also have no trouble understanding that God dealt with Adam and Eve differently before and after the fall, and that he dealt with Abraham differently than he did the Jewish people under Moses.
Going too far beyond that can lead to problems – for example, saying that the Sermon on the Mount was spoken by Christ to the Jews before Pentecost, and so does not apply to Christians. This means, I suppose, that we are free to worry and be anxious about tomorrow, return evil for evil, look at women lustfully, and build our house upon the sand instead of upon the rock.
As to Revelation, the first three chapters are open to any spiritually minded Christian – though differences of interpretation are possible as in other biblical books.
Also, the last three chapters are very plain, though differences of interpretation are possible.
As to the intervening chapters, with the beasts, plagues, and trumpets, I have read through the whole book many times in reading the New Testament from cover to cover, and don’t approve of those who avoid Revelation altogether, thinking it is too hard. There are some things which God has provided for us to read, but we should not be too dogmatic about.
Personally, I think some Christians should spend less time on Revelation and more time on teachings pertaining to practical Christianity, and sanctification in daily life.
As to “Dispensationalism, which is more commonly known as Christian Zionism,” I would qualify as a Christian Zionist, since I believe not only in the right of Israel to exist, and to defend itself. I also believe that the return of the Jews to their biblical homeland is the work of God, which he will continue. But I base this on the literal fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies, and what has actually occurred in the world, not on any elaborate and speculative end times scenarios.
More specifically, I do not believe in a secret, hidden return of Christ for a pre-trib rapture, and do not claim to understand the seals and trumpets and beasts of Revelation. I believe there will be one return of Christ after the tribulation, which will be like lightning flashing from east to west, known and visible to all. The saints who are alive then will be caught up to meet him in the air, as the Bible plainly states, but after the tribulation. So I am not excitedly looking for signs of the coming tribulation in the expectation that all believers will be caught up out of it.
“We are not appointed to wrath,” as the Bible says. That means true Christians are not going to go to hell, but will be accepted on the day of judgment. In this life, we may go through suffering and tribulation, and it is an honor and a privilege to suffer for Christ.
So, I don’t go along with much that is popularly associated with Christian Zionism. The idea that the Jews have their own relationship with God and do not need salvation in Christ is plainly false teaching (meaning, lies) since all have sinned and there is none righteous, no not one, and there is no other name given under heaven whereby men can be saved.
Neither do I get caught up in tiresome and shallow exclamations of excitement every time there is a war in the Middle East. Jesus said, “There will be wars and rumors of wars,” but that we should not be concerned about those things.
Neither do I feel any obligation to support every Israeli Prime Minister and every Israeli action or policy. Even in Old Testament Israel, when God was directly working with the nation of Israel in extraordinary ways, there were wicked kings and wicked people. And we read in I John that “the whole world lieth in wickedness.” That includes Israel and the USA, and every other country on earth.
But, I do not believe that the Israelis are obligated (a) to lie down and allow themselves to be killed and slaughtered by Muslims or (b) to pack up and leave, and go back to Germany, Poland, Russia, America or wherever. With Gods help, they have built a modern nation in their ancestral homeland, and they are allowed to defend themselves.
I do believe that modern Israel has a role to play in God’s providence in the end times – but my spiritual life does not revolve around that. I am more concerned with living the Christian life in a way that is right and acceptable to God. Is not God allowed to use the nations as he sees fit? Did he not use England greatly in the past, and has he not used America in many significant ways, in spite of its many sins?
The fact that God used America and England does not mean that all Americans and Englishmen are guaranteed of salvation, or immune to the demands of the Second Covenant. But God does not deal only with saved people, while the unbelievers can ran amok completely beyond any divine control.
FDR and Churchill were not men of God – was the Lord prevented from using them for his purposes? No.
The Jews unquestionably were a chosen people in the Old Testament era, when they had light and instruction from God unknown to the rest of the world. And what is to prevent God from preserving them, and bringing them back to the land for another future use – not one that will exempt them from the demands of the New Covenant, but will contribute to the final completion of that Covenant when in the end of the age all true believers in Christ, Jew and Gentile, will be gathered together into one, with the wall of partition broken down between them?
Now, in the terms of the New Covenant, the spiritual children of Abraham by saving faith in Christ are the true children of God – but that does not mean God has cast away the Jewish people and has nothing more to do with them, as Paul said in Romans. God has not cast the Jewish people away.
God’s providence does not deal only with saved people. His hand is stretched out over all the earth, and if he used America or England for good ,or even Nazi Germany or ancient Babylon as instruments of his wrath he has the right to do so.
And if he is gathering the Jews back to their biblical homeland; if he is gathering together the dry bones and clothing them with sinews, flesh and skin so that at the right time he may breathe life into them, that does not affect our standing in Christ or detract from his salvation in any way.
And if the veil over the heart of the Jews is finally removed when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and they are able to come to saving faith in Christ, that should be a matter of rejoicing for the church, not a matter of jealousy and recrimination. In God’s timing, the veil will be taken away (2 Corinthians 3:16).
This is not nonsense at all, but the plain teaching of the word of God. It has nothing to do with Christian Zionism, it has to do with believing what Paul wrote – that God has not cast the Jews away but has a further use for them. This does not mean they will be guaranteed of salvation because of their ethnicity, since God is not a respecter of persons. They will be able to disbelieve or believe as individuals, just as God’s pouring out of his Holy Spirit in the Great Awakening in colonial America did not mean that the British colonials were all guaranteed of salvation.
God can send his Holy Spirit in revival wherever and whenever he will – to Japan, Mexico, France, or to a reconstituted and revived state of Israel.
The primary problem with Christian Zionists is the inability to recognize the difference between biblical Israel and the modern state of Israel founded by atheists from Europe.
The Ashkenazim have no direct ethnic connection to biblical Hebrews. The Ashkenazim are converts, and this is even recognized in modern Israel, and I have seen and experienced this myself in Israel.
The Ashkenazim are not "defending" themselves. They invaded, and laid claim to, land that does not belong to them, and in the process, have murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians, including destroying a number of ancient Christian churches, in furtherance of their supremacist goals.
Just focus on Christ and stop groveling in front of people who have nothing but open contempt for American Christians, and I've also experienced that in Israel as well.
JK - "A retired English teacher, I have an interest in the intersection of religion (Christian) and current culture and events." - I read your comment, so you might be interested in - www.crushlimbraw.com - and the link to DaLimbraw Library - good hunting!
I noticed on the introductory page of your website you stated "As to Christ’s instructions to ‘make disciples of all nations’, well, that can always be explained away as saving souls. I am speaking on this topic from personal experience. I was one of them for 20 some years. "
So you were a Christian for some time, but then gave up on it?
About the article The Alliance Made in Hell? I have never paid any attention to Nelson Darby and Dispensationalism. I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, but do not think that Darby is the sole reason for the weakness and passivity of America's churches. There are many reasons for it - decline in basic doctrines for one thing, and lack of seriousness about living the Christian life for another.
I looked at some of your library's articles and disagree with you about Israel. I believe the modern state is a fulfilment of biblical prophecy, and that has nothing to do with Darby and dispensationalism. It has to do with (a) many Old Testament prophecies talking about how God will expel the Jews from the land and eventually bring them back to the land, permanently, not to be uprooted again, and (b) what has actually happened. I believe God governs the nations, and the survival of the Jews as well as their return to the biblical homeland is the work of God.
Obviously, much more could be said about this, but I am interested in your experiences with Christianity - if and why you abandoned it, and what you currently believe.
Personally, I believe America is headed for a collision course with the wrath of God due to its being a wicked and ungodly nation, that no President can change or solve.
Not sure how you concluded that leaving premillenialism equated to abandoning Christianity, as you seem to have assumed. That is certainly not the case here at all.
As to the Jews - who they are and who they are not - is explained in multiple articles by more than one author in DaLimbraw Library. History alone shows that today's Jews are NOT Old Testament Israel - in addition to what took place in 70 AD. Example: Jesus was not a Jew - He was a Judahite - the term Jew has essentially lost any definitive meaning because there were 12 tribes in Israel. Moses was not a Jew - you can dig deeper here in DLL or many other sources.
Judaism = DaSynagogue ofSatan > Zionism Today's Jews are NOT Ancient Israel! From DaLimbraw Library: Judaism - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/search?q=Judaism&updated-max=2024-05-28T10:30:00-07:00&max-results=20&by-date=false&m=1
DaSynagogue of Satan (DSOS) - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/search?q=Synagogue+of+Satan+&m=1 - Zionism - https://crushlimbraw.blogspot.com/search?q=Zionism&updated-max=2019-10-12T12:49:00-07:00&max-results=20&by-date=false&m=1
Good hunting!